What you need to know about iOS 15 and marketing your store

Last month Apple announced some changes to the upcoming version of iOS 15, which removes access to data that brands are used to having.

Today we're joined by our good friend Val Geisler, Customer Evangelist at Klaviyo, to break down what this means in more detail and how to shift your operations to customer-first marketing.

Let's dig in!



Val Geisler is the Customer Evangelist at Klaviyo. Prior to joining the Klaviyo team, Val was an email marketing consultant for B2B and B2C brands. Because she's obsessed with improving how brands and customers connect, Val loves digging into the best ways to use different channels to make lasting connections. And memes. Val loves a good meme, too.




Mesa is an easy way to integrate any Shopify store with any eCommerce app or service. Mesa is the only automation platform designed exclusively for Shopify and Shopify Plus merchants. By creating workflows that carry out repetitive tasks automatically, merchants can focus on their business and create new customer experiences at scale. 

Mesa has a no-code workflow builder for any action your customer takes, such as a new order or product return. Leverage Mesa's built-in features to extend your connected apps. Set up email notifications, receive forms, schedule tasks, delay workflows, or even work with files to sync data with your back-office systems. Developers love Mesa too, since they can lift the hood on any automation to customize them for total control.

Even if you're unsure where to start, Mesa's library of workflow templates helps you get set up quickly with popular tasks common to growing businesses. Or contact their team of automation experts here to support you every step of the way, 24/7.



Win back valuable lost time for your support team. Gorgias has machine learning functionality that takes pressure off small support teams and gives them the tools to manage a large number of inquiries at scale. Gorgias combines all your different communication channels (email, SMS, social media, livechat, phone, etc.) into one platform and gives you an organized view of all customer inquiries. 

Their powerful functionality can save your support team hours per day and makes managing customer orders a breeze. They have allowed online merchants to close tickets faster than ever, with the help of pre-written responses integrated with customer data to increase the overall efficiency of customer support.

Their built-in automation also frees up time for support agents to give better answers to complex, product-related questions, providing next level which helps increase sales, brand loyalty, and recognition.



Every aspect of your website is a variable that could be impacting your businesses revenue. We all want to grow our business. When we make changes we look for that to improve our business. Maybe you add a new graphic here, new social proof on your product page there, maybe change your pricing, bingo. But... do you know if your new thing is helping or hurting you? 
Today, testing is a requirement in understanding what is and isn't working for your business. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to test. In fact we set up our first test in less than 10 minutes using Neat A/B Testing. After our test was live we saw a confidence level on each of our tests to know what is actually best for our business. How? They showed us the additional revenue per view for each variant! Give our friends at Neat A/B Testing a try today and start testing for your business. Head over to try.neatab.com/commerce-tea and start your 14-day free trial.



show notes.

  • Tell us about yourself
  • What's Klaviyo?
  • What is a flow?
  • How do you decide how to segment your emails?
  • What happened with iOS 14.5?
  • What does it mean in the short-term and long-term?
  • What about iOS 15?
  • If they can't rely on Open Tracking, what should they rely on?
  • Store shoutout: Born Primitive
  • Store shoutout: Hyer Goods
  • Store shoutout: Fly By Jing
  • Where can we find you on the internet?


Kelly 0:00
Last month, Apple announced some changes to the upcoming version of iOS 15, which removes access to data that brands are used to having. Today we're joined by our good friend Val Geisler customer evangelist at clay vo to break down what this means in more detail and how to shift your operations to customer first marketing. Let's dig in.

Rhian 0:22
Welcome to Commerce Tea, a podcast to help you succeed on Shopify.

Kelly 0:26
I'm Ryan. And I'm Kelly. Grab a mug and join us as we talk about all things commerce.

every aspect of your website is a variable that could be impacting your business's revenue. We all want to grow our business and we may change in the hopes of seeing our business grow. Maybe you add a new graphic here new social proof on your product page there, maybe change your pricing. But do you know if this new thing is helping or hurting you? Today, testing is a requirement understanding what is and isn't working for your business. You don't need to be a rocket scientist test. In fact, I set up my first test in less than 10 minutes on a client store using neat A B testing. After the test was live we saw a confidence level on each of our tests to know which is actually best for the business how they sort of see additional revenue per view for each variants. Give her friends that need a be testing twice a day and start testing for your business. Head over to try need AB comm slash commerce dash t to start your 14 day free trial. Again, that's try dot n EA t ab.com. Slash commerce dash T.

Rhian 1:34
mesa is the easiest way to integrate any top ecommerce app or service with your online store designed exclusively for Shopify and Shopify plus mesas. automated workflows can get back your time spent on repetitive tasks while growing your business at the same time. Join other merchants that have embraced the simplicity of meses no code approach to building workflows, you can create new ways to improve customer engagement. Encourage repeat purchases without lifting a finger, reduce manual data entry and more through a simple point and click interface. And with bfcm planning around the corner, now is the time to ask the question is my online store prepared? optimizing every step in the shopping experience is the only way to create a lifelong customer. Get Mesa and capitalize on one of the biggest commerce events of the year. Search for Mesa in the Shopify App Store and download the app today.

Kelly 2:36
Now Good morning. Thank you so much for joining us. I'm very happy to be here. How are you doing

Unknown Speaker 2:42
today? I'm good. I it is summertime, but I'm wearing a sweater. So you know, it's like one of those things when it's that time of year when the air conditioning is like bumping because it's so hot out that you then wear winter clothes indoors. And then you take all the layers off to go. Yeah,

Rhian 3:01
I have to tell you I'm slightly jealous. My my air conditioning can't keep up right now with the heat. I'm in Southern California and it's just a little bit hot. You know what I mean? It's just a little it's a little bit hotter in all the rooms of my house. Like look, I'm trying okay. You're doing something. Here's one advice. What are you doing?

Unknown Speaker 3:32
warming me up. I'm in Ohio. Oh, no, the Midwest, not even the middle of the Midwest as east coast. You can get in the Midwest. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Ohio. Fun fact is Eastern Time. A lot of people think it's central but or Eastern time. The whole state

Kelly 3:48
Really? I mean, I guess being from Michigan. I knew it was Eastern. I never would have guessed that people thought it was central. Oh, yeah. Especially straight North for me. And I'm in Atlanta.

Unknown Speaker 4:01
Right now, especially people on the East Coast, like true East coasters. You know, the East coasters. Eastern stops that like Pennsylvania for them, right?

Kelly 4:13
Everybody, everything west of that is just in the past. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 4:17
Must be a different time zone. You know, unimportant to what we're doing. Speaking

Kelly 4:21
of unimportant, wrong segue. Tell us about yourself.

Okay, Daniel called me. How should I say this? I was laying on the couch and I was really sprawled out because I was tired from being in the car for 11 hours yesterday. And the way I was laying, he was like, you look comfortable? No, no, you look like a beached whale. I'm like, we're gonna let you live by the fact that you just call me a beached whale.

Rhian 4:58
starfish, Daniel starfish.

Unknown Speaker 5:04
Love you too. Would you like a shovel? Yeah, you've already begun with your spoon. So I'll just give you a whole shovel and you can keep going. Man, I do enjoy a good starfish lay down though. Like, full bed. starfish lay down. That's what's the thing? It's a good thing. It's Yeah, there's just something really restorative about like separating all of your limbs. Not sure. I think it has to be yoga,

Kelly 5:38
the yoga probably can be I would make it a yoga, yoga,

Rhian 5:43
teaching yoga, we would lay down a lot. I think

Unknown Speaker 5:46
they do it on my kids yoga stuff, like, do a starfish. And then they just spread out. All Yoga is animal shapes. That's all you're doing. You You know, you walk like a penguin you jump like a rabbit you like everything is animals. That's how they teach you Okay, kids. Fun, I love that that's actually more fun than grown up. I was gonna say Sign me up to the kid yoga, send me the links. But Katie yoga goes really fast, because like kids lose attention really quickly. So it's actually quite exhausting. And adult doing kid yoga with your kids, because it moves so quickly. And your body is three times as big as your four year old. doesn't move as quickly either. Yeah, um, so about me, a four year old, and a seven year old. Um, we do some yoga. And I live in Ohio, we've covered that. I am a total email geek I in that I care. Perhaps too much about emails that brands send out I have a lot of inboxes and emails that I just collect on lists. I'm the kind of person who signs up to an email list, like hoping for something weird in my inbox to happen so that I can like to unpack it and talk about it. Like when I sign up to the same list with two different email addresses, and then I actually get this split test. That's like, that's my love language, quite honestly. I love it. Yeah.

Kelly 7:31
So you, you work for clay vo

Unknown Speaker 7:34
or for clay vo I'm customer evangelist, which is the most fun job. It's my job to collect the stories of our customers and then tell them to my co workers to the community to the entire world. And it's so much fun, I get to learn about all these different businesses and how they've grown and the things that they love the things that they are frustrated by.

Kelly 8:01
It's like the best job and we talk about cleveo a lot on the podcast by what you like. How are a lot of us, from your perspective, what is cleveo people aren't like, what

Unknown Speaker 8:14
is a clay? Vo? What is it? What is klaviyo? What's the the our British friends say? clavijo klaviyo? Yeah, that comes out a lot. No, it's clay vo and so clay vo is a email marketing service provider actually really like more than email. It's like a data house right? Like you can collect data on your from your subscribers, not secretively in very clear ways, years of your subscribers customers can provide you with information about themselves and you can store it and then use that to create proper messaging. And it's really not about like, like I said, being sneaky, or being gross or weird, although I definitely see some of that in my inbox, which that's like the spend stuff that I like to point out. But it's it's not about that it's about creating the right marketing for the right people at the right time. And truly being customer first in the way that you market as a brand, and putting your customers friends center. Because when they tell you something about themselves, you should then in turn, respect that and market to them accordingly. So that's what I think is the most powerful part and like, yeah, we can send set up flows and campaigns and send emails and SMS and you can do all of those things, all those ways that we messaged with customers all the time. But to me like the most powerful part is that you have all this data that you can use across different segments and across, like email and SMS, and you can use it to communicate with our some of our integration partners and other tools. So it's really a lot more powerful than, like, hit send on a female, quote, blast, you know, once a week or something, I

Kelly 10:17
think that's such an important distinction because, you know, email, from a customer perspective, we usually just see the emails coming in from a lot of merchants, it's just being like noisy ads, that it's just all purely promotional. And there's, there's no relevance to it. Because, as you said, it's like an email blast, just throw sticks with some people, somebody will will purchase, but it's for me, the email marketing, the SMS marketing via clay vo, it's about forming and nurturing relationships with your customers, for sure. And,

Unknown Speaker 10:51
you know, we definitely work with brands who have like really big lists, we also have customers who have teeny tiny lists, but just like to touch on that segmenting and kind of, you know, sending those very personalized messages. I talked to a brand called proozy recently, and proozy is kind of like they call themselves like TJ Maxx for the internet. So you can, it's like a deals site, right, so they get what other brands, you know, a colorway from last season or the overstock of something, and they warehouse all of it, and then they, they sell it right, really cool. So obviously, with lots of different product categories and types of things coming in all the time. And they were sending, let's see, they were they cut down, they cut down from five campaigns a day, to three campaigns a day. And those three campaigns are going to more targeted lists based off of the information that they had. And they actually went from, they went up, like five grand a day in, in revenue. Because of that, I love it, like, that's insane, that they you know, it's like that you can increase your revenue by decreasing your volume, just by targeting just by saying, like, Hey, we're gonna actually just give people the, the information that they want, that they said that they want, and stick with that. So it was like a big risk that they took, obviously, because you wouldn't think that you're going to make more money by sending less often. But they tested it, and now they're like, doubling down, they're like, Okay, now we're gonna send once a day, but to even more targeted lists, and they're gonna, you know, increase their revenue even more. It's just incredible when you can take those really massive lists and segment down, but you can even do it with, you know, a 2000 person email list, it's you don't have to be the TJ Maxx of the internet to, to see those kinds of results.

Rhian 13:00
Are there segments, so I'm not an email person, right? I'm like a on page off page. But for whatever reason, email has just been this elusive thing I don't really get and what? So I just want to predicate this question, which I think is a fairly basic question for you. But for me, I don't know the answer. How do you know what to segment and what to target and to personalize around? And then the follow on question, which is also maybe what we should answer first is, Can you define a flow for me and for the audience? Oh, yeah. So

Unknown Speaker 13:39
I'll start there. So flow is a series of emails that go out over time, based on different triggers that you set for them. So it might be X amount of time has passed since the last email, go ahead and send the next one. It might be a somebody clicked on the last email, you can send this email or somebody didn't click on the last email, send this email, other email instead. So flows can be built with lots of different activities. But I think that the key is that it is it's a flow of emails, it's a whole bunch of emails that go out over a period of time, and that you don't have to do anything. So you're not logging in hitting that send button, like you would on a campaign, which is what a lot of people call like their blast. I hate that word. And I just wish it would go away in the world of email, but it never will. But yeah, that's the difference. I answer your first question. It's the the most hated email answer which is it depends.

Rhian 14:53
We love that. We love that answer here at Commerce Tea.

Unknown Speaker 14:56
It really It does. It depends how you say How you segment is, I think you can take two approaches. One is wrong. The two approaches

Rhian 15:09
are however one However,

Unknown Speaker 15:12
there is a wrong answer, even though it depends. I'm so like your it depends on your product line, your brand, who your customers are. So you could segment like, if your customers or the entire population, then you could segment out like, I want to see only your women's line, I want to see only your men's line, or I want to see both people can make those choices. So that's those could be segments. But if you only sell clothing for women's bodies, then you might not need to make that kind of segmentation. So that's the it depends. The the one that's wrong is when you send her segmentation around your brand, and not around your customers. So you could segment for like, what you think your segments are. But your customers actually know what your segments are. It depends on the brand knows how that gets defined. But you know, I think like a good example would be if you sell home goods, and you have furniture and like General tchotchke accessories, stuff. Just because somebody only buys decorative accessories doesn't mean that they will never buy furniture. So you have to understand your customers and their buying patterns and the way that they think about your product and how the job that your product has to do. Because it's not actually like about the product, but it's about what they need that product to do in their lives. And then that tells you what you need to know about how you segment your list. Okay, it's just that easy. That's how you do goodbye. You are now professional. Fun. Yeah. It's I mean, it's really complicated, right, like, and understanding that job. So I'm referring to a practice called jobs to be done. It's widely used in the software world through with product managers, and you can google jobs to be done, you'll find all kinds of resources on it. But the like kind of just of jobs to be done is that there is a job that your customer is, quote, hiring your product to do. And it's not what you're most likely marketing to them. And so, you know, the, the decorative household, like the book ends are not to hold books on a bookshelf. I mean, that's like the functional job, right? But maybe you're the bookends that you sell are of like globes. And so your customers job for that for those bookends is to look worldly or traveled or you know, to have a conversation piece when people come over and are looking at their bookshelf. And it's not just a line of books, but there's also these bookends there that add to the conversation add to the the decor. So it's it's a deeper jobs than like, hold your books on the shelf.

Rhian 18:29
That's a lot. And I love that it's a lot and I love this. That's why there's people like you that exists that get to be the keepers of this knowledge. So I don't have to learn all of this knowledge and I'm sure there's like a bunch of information published by clay vo as well.

Unknown Speaker 18:47
Right? You know, jobs is interesting because it's like, it gives you insight into so many different areas of your business. When I was a consultant before I worked at clay vo I did this kind of research for my clients. And every time there was more than just the emails that was impacted by having these conversations with customers and really digging into who they are, why the way that they think why they make the decisions that they make. But we applied all of that research to our email flows. But then my client would then take all of that information and apply it across the rest of their business. So and I worked with SAS and e commerce brands, so I saw it happening in all different types of businesses to

Kelly 19:39
ran What can I do to help my support team be more efficient.

Rhian 19:42
I recommend gorgeous gorgeous combines all your communications channels, including email, SMS, social media, live, chat and phone into one platform and gives you an organized view of all help requests. This saves your support team hours per day. It makes managing customer orders Have Brees?

Kelly 20:01
Sounds great. What else can you do

Rhian 20:03
with gorgeous you can pre write and save responses to your most frequently asked questions. You even have access to the customer's order information. So you can personalize the responses with things like an order or tracking number. This will allow your support team to focus on complex questions. brands like Ollie pop, deathwish, coffee and Steve Madden have reduced their response times and increased efficiencies.

Kelly 20:27
This sounds like a great way to also increase sales and brand loyalty. Where can I learn more?

Rhian 20:31
Check out gorgeous by visiting Commerce tea.com forward slash gorgeous and try gorgeous for free for two months. Again, that's Commerce tea.com forward slash GORGI. A S.

Kelly 20:46
I know it mentioned in the intro that iOS 15 brought some changes. But let's back up because iOS 14.5 also process changes.

Unknown Speaker 21:01
Rocking marketers right now.

Kelly 21:03
Yeah, yeah, it's an experience. So let's start with iOS 14.5. Okay, what happened?

Unknown Speaker 21:10
So 14.5 started this, I kind of locked down on customer data or not necessarily locked down, but really shifting customer data back into their own hands. So to date, and you know, if you go on and buy a pair of shoes on the internet, those shoes then follow you around on every website and social platform you're on that they you know, you see the ads all over the place. And you're like, I just bought those shoes, or maybe you just looked at the website, and now you're being retargeted all over the place. And that the ability to do that easily, was almost entirely not entirely but very nearly stripped away, in 14.5. So there were, I think that the list was something like, these numbers are wrong. But it was something like there used to be 366, let's say, targeting points on your Facebook ads. So you could say like the all these different values about people I want to target. And it took it down to again, wrong number but just for example, something like 32, you know, so you went from like, several 100 to a two digit, two digit number of targeting ability. And so it just took the categories a lot broader. It said you can't get this drill down into who your customers are, unless they give you that information. So they were really you probably solid as you if specially if you have an iPhone, as you updated your operating system on your iPhone, you probably started to see when you log into a social platform and said, Do you want to allow this app to track you and intern on the internet? And you got to choose yes or no. And then and they you know, of course the social platforms that say, to give you a better experience of your ads. But what that really means is to be able to track you around the internet so that we can give you ads that reflect to the websites that you're you've already been on. So that's kind of the very broad, and I'm no ads expert, so they can speak a lot better to 14.5. But that's, you know, kind of my broad understanding of those updates and this trend towards returning data back into consumers hands.

Kelly 23:40
You know, it's kind of funny I've seen since since that came out, I've seen people start to say I'm opting back in because I'm tired of getting served ads that are irrelevant. Oh, yeah, I've

Unknown Speaker 23:51
definitely seen that. And I've considered it myself. Like, I mean, my ads on Twitter are terrible, and have nothing to do with anything I'm interested in. So there is I think there's the push from the other side from the platform side. I don't want to say they're delivering terrible ads on purpose. But I mean, maybe they are to get you to opt back in so that they can reclaim your data. And then the ads paid ads become more valuable. I know a lot of our customers that I've talked to have decided, Hey, you know what, we're going to just like take a pause on running ads right now because we don't know what's going on. We don't know what kind of results we're going to get. The big huge brands can afford to spend more ads become more expensive, when there's less targeting less ads being run. So they ads have become more expensive overall. And a lot of a lot of people I'm talking to especially smaller brands are saying let's take a step back from our ad spend and focus it in on email or in on our one to one customer messaging channels.

Rhian 24:59
What do you You think this is going to mean?

Kelly 25:03
Long term?

Rhian 25:05
No. Short term now term?

Kelly 25:07
No term?

Rhian 25:08
Yeah. Now term mid term long term. Okay.

Unknown Speaker 25:10
So now term I think is that like, pumping the brakes, you know, brands are saying, I don't know exactly what's happening, I know that my ads are costing me more to get eyeballs on them. And so I'm just gonna stop for a minute, or I'm gonna pull it way, way back as far as what my budget is for ad spend. And they're really focusing in, I think, now term is like, I don't know what we're gonna do with it, but we're just gonna stop mid term, which is starting to become like, We're going into that is a brand saying, Okay, let's focus in on the channels that we actually control, because what we're finding is that, ultimately, other platforms run these places that we rely so heavily on. So if you're a brand that relies entirely on even organic traffic, or, or Facebook ads, running ads on Facebook, Instagram, um, you know, those are platforms that you have no control over, if those, for whatever reason shut down entirely tomorrow. If Google's cease to exist, somehow, then you wouldn't be able to get any of that organic traffic or those ads that you're running. If Facebook decided that now you have to, they're going to 20x the cost of ads, just because they want to, just because they can and, and I wouldn't put it past them. You can't afford that anymore. And so a lot of brands are really focusing on the channels that they do own, which is really their website and email, and send SMS those like one to one those places where your subscribers your potential customers and your customers have chosen to interact with you have opted in to something that's those like customer first marketing channels where you can really own that marketing and say, like, Hey, we have this list no matter what. And even if you know that it's in a CSV, I can tuck it away on my desktop if I want to, or like in some thumb drive. But it's it's yours, right? And you can take it wherever you want to go. So and it's also I think, not only that, but it is that relationship that's so important. Whereas what you randomly get retargeted for on the internet isn't necessarily something you opted into. You didn't opt in to see the boots that you just bought eight more times that day as you go around the internet. But that definitely has happened to me.

Rhian 28:01
It's happened to me, it's all I'm like you're wasting your impress. Don't do it. Stop it. I bought it go away.

Unknown Speaker 28:07
Yes, I know. I feel like I just feel so bad. But I think most of the time when that happens, it's from really big brands who like, probably don't really care about that.

Rhian 28:18
Like, okay, whatever. It's like a rounding error. Like, yeah, yeah, Zappos gives zero laughs whatever. Have you seen our budget and no revenue? Right? Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 28:30
it's fine with with, it's just a wash. Like, we won't worry about all those random retargeting spends. So I think that that's near term future term. And I don't know, like, I think there's a lot of work to be done. I do think I brands are never going to stop running ads, no matter what, like that's not going anywhere. And what I would love to see in the future is that when you're running ads, that the there's some consideration around what you're running ads to. So that instead of running ads to directly to a product to get a sale, that the investment in ADS is considered a long term investment. And that you're running ads to like a landing page with an email opt in or, you know, a discord group or there's, you know, some something that is a value to your consumers other than the product itself. And even if it's just a portion of your ad spend that you're directing that way, I think it can make a huge difference for the way that customers interact with brands and the results brands get from ads. But you have to think long term. And traditionally, ad spend has been a very short term quick fix kind of get them in the door approach.

Rhian 29:55
We always say that about for SEO as well or like that's your quick fix. But if you don't do the good groundwork and the organic and build it all up, it doesn't

Kelly 30:04
matter. It only gets you so far.

Unknown Speaker 30:07
Yeah. And that's, and that's one off emails, you know that are those blasts are there, though? They are, they're the band aids. So the quick fix, like, let's go send a campaign about a discount that we're offering today is because we got to get some products out the door, great, but the flows can actually work for you in the background all the time. Those are the like, that's where the real money is

Kelly 30:31
thinking of real money. I love my segways

Unknown Speaker 30:34
they make total sense. You have money for me. Real Money, we wrote you a check.

Kelly 30:41
Do you an invoice today? Other way,

Rhian 30:47
imagine being like a pay to play podcast thing.

Unknown Speaker 30:51
I'm sure I've been approached by those. For only $500, we'll feature you as a guest on our podcast.

Rhian 31:00
Oh, how generous of them is. So I know,

Kelly 31:02
people might think of like, being a guest on their podcast, but also sponsoring the podcast is kind of like a pay to play. I mean, kind of, if that makes sense. sponsoring our podcast because you love us. And then you're also joining our podcast as a guest. I like to think of them as two separate thing. Okay, yeah. So iOS 15. It is not out yet. But but we'll just send out

Unknown Speaker 31:33
that things are happening around it. And this is definitely more on the email side of things. Way more on the email side of things. I was 15 seems to come directly after email. And that there's three kind of major components of this update. That is to come. One, and this is, again, this is iOS, so it is specific to Apple products. And we believe we don't have our, our we have a whole team at clay vo that are working on this. Our deliverability experts are product experts, and some very bright minds who know way more about email and the way it all works inside of the rectangle box than I do. They're working on it and trying to figure out, what does it all mean before it actually goes live. And what we understand is that was especially for Apple Mail, so for the people who use Apple Mail, and we're not sure about like other mail providers, other inboxes on an Apple device, like I use Gmail on an Apple device. So we're not really sure how it affects those. But for Apple products, the ability to turn off open tracking. So marketing emails have a little pixel embedded in all of them. So even if you send a text, quote, text only email, that email still has an image that needs to be displayed in in order to mark an open. So iOS 15 is allowing you the ability to turn off all of that tracking, where you it will no longer report back to the email service provider that the email has opened. email open rates have been a metric that people track and if you talk to anyone in email, we've always said it's a vanity metric, and that they're really imperfect. There are all kinds of services that kind of screw with open rates anyways, like sanebox, and roll unroll me and those kinds of things. And, and because there is that little tiny pixel, if you're sending text based emails, and somebody doesn't display images, but they could still read the email, they could still actually open it. But they don't display images, it doesn't get marked as a read as open. So it's always been invaluable anyways, so like, I'm not too worried about that one. I think open rates is something that people have. It's been a crutch for a really long time. Oh, well, our open rates are like 40%. But our click our click through rates are like, point 2%. Like, okay, well, the click rates, that's where the magic is, right? There's no point in opening an email, if you don't have anything to do with it afterwards. I mean, on occasion, you can have a conversation with your customers and not have a call to action in your emails. I don't think you need a call to action in every single email. But ultimately, if we're talking about conversions from email, we want to look at clicks. So clicks are still around. They're not going anywhere. yet. So

Kelly 34:58

Unknown Speaker 34:59
I mean We're only on 15, iOS 15. I mean, we're, we've got plenty of iOS iterations to come, you never know. So that's open tracking, open tracking is a hard one for a lot of people to hear. Because it's been what a lot of marketers have relied on for their, quote, success of their emails. The second update to iOS 15 is the ability to block your IP address, which means it becomes harder to send, like browse abandon campaigns, unless they're clicking through from an email. So it also means that Currently, there are brands that are displaying different opt ins or entire sites to existing customers versus not yet customers, right. So people have bought from you before, maybe you have a subscription brand. And you want to offer a different experience of your website to those who are already subscribed, versus people who have never purchased from you. And you're going to display a different homepage, or you know, you have if they're a subscriber, you might have like a login. And maybe they go straight to their dashboard, or I don't know. But iOS 15 allows you to block all of that, if you want to as a customer. And then the last one that is actually has been available for a little while now. It's just kind of they're throwing it on there is that remember this exists is the ability to hide your email address. So not having email addresses populate inside of email lists to begin with. And that's a that's one that they like kind of quietly rolled out.

Kelly 36:53
How does that work in

Unknown Speaker 36:53
the last year? It's been on their support site. hide my email for sign in with Apple. That's the heading on the apple support.

Kelly 37:03
Oh, that Okay, yeah,

Unknown Speaker 37:06
got it. So you can create a random email address. So your email stays private? So you could you Kelly could sign up to the same email list multiple times with random email addresses. And for what we know so far, that could then add 10 new people to a brand's email list, which ultimately cost the brand money.

Kelly 37:34
Yeah, yeah. Okay. Okay, so if merchants cannot rely on open tracking, what should they rely on?

Unknown Speaker 37:46
Yeah. Well, clicks is the first one that I would say. I think conversions is ultimately what we need to be tracking. clicks are the signal of eventual conversion, and, and interest. So you can still rely on that. When people are clicking through from a link in your email, then you can trigger flows based off of that click, you can take action, based off of the click, you could send a one off campaign to people who clicked on a particular email. There's all kinds of actions you can take. But those that's a really high intent, that click conversions is ultimately the best measure. And really the one that everyone should have been tracking all along for email. Email isn't about getting opens and reading my email. Yeah,

Kelly 38:50
I mean, do anything with it, just read it.

Unknown Speaker 38:52
It's not the subject line. If that is the email, it's the email itself. That's what is being built. Yeah, it's, it's, it is funny. It's like, as brands, we've been saying, just open my email, I don't care what you do with it after that. Just open it totally. Just like, honestly busy work for your customers, you know, we don't want to give them busy work. We want to be able to send them targeted information that they want, when they want it. And you can figure that out. When you're tracking clicks, who's clicking on what, what, how often are they clicking on it? You know, those kinds of things.

Rhian 39:30
So I have a lot more questions and I think we need to have you come on again. I would be happy. Because I'm like, okay, we're coming up on the time when people stop listening. And so I want I want to make sure people get all of this goodness. And so yeah, we'd love to have you back like ASAP. I think

Unknown Speaker 39:53
that the most important thing to know is like yeah, they they are quote taking away all of this. Quite honestly, it's a lot like GDPR, a couple of years ago, where it's like, let's actually give the human beings with the, the money that are is being spent on the internet, the control over their own experience of the internet. And it's not about the car, it's not about the brand, it's about the customer. So if you are thinking in that direction, then none of these updates actually matter. And, you know, if you think about what is best for the customer, and how can I build a relationship with my customer, well, that's having them opt in, that's building relationships where they want to click on things that sending relevant, pertinent information, when that makes them want to interact with it. You know, that's, they're not going to click on things or even open things, who cares when you're sending five times a day to your entire list. But when you're sending very targeted messaging, through SMS through email, you can get those people moving through having that conversation with you. It's, it's like less funnel and more relationship. That's what I really think, is the important piece to pull out of all of this, that we're just removing that idea of like, let's push people through this funnel, which just sounds gross. Versus like, let's build relationships with all these people on the internet. And really, all these 14.5 15 updates are just make forcing, forcing marketers hand in that direction.

Kelly 41:40
So we like to end our episodes with a store shout out, is a store that you have shopped on is a store that is pretty it is a store that you like, it is a store that has an absolutely terrible user experience you want to call out, we generally don't get super negative with them. But you know, there are no rules as long as it is a store.

Unknown Speaker 42:00
Store. What's your store? Boring and primitive. So born primitive, calm, they work out apparel, athletic apparel. It's founded by an active duty military family. I am a military spouse. And so I appreciate that. And I buy their high rise. workout shorts. Really good. They make really nice sports braas softest fabric. It's lovely. They're cleveo customer.

Kelly 42:34
Okay, using turbo from out of the sandbox. Something I can always immediately see.

Unknown Speaker 42:42
Yeah, you can you can identify those those themes. That should be like a game show that you do. You would do and kill you.

Kelly 42:50
It's Yeah. It's a problem. Like I can't go on to a website not be like Alright, so it's using this theme is built at first, is it on Shopify? Second, what theme are they using? Third? What apps are they using? And fourth, where are all the holes in the user experience? That's a very person at parties. Yeah. Yeah. Brian, what's your shout out

Rhian 43:13
my shout out is to hire goods. H YERGOD s.com. And I got for my birthday, a fanny pack slash belt bag slash whatever we want to call it in 2021. And they use upcycled leather. So it reduces waste. They use an all sustainably certified women owned factory in India. It's all really cool. It's really beautiful. It's affordable. I really jam on it. So I highly recommend everyone checking it out. I love that it's a zero waste brand and their sustainability goes all the way down to the shipping. Sustainable across the board. So big fan. Really? Why are Yes, yes. I'll say you're also a clay vo customer.

Kelly 44:07
We'd love to hear it. Mm hmm. Okay, so my store shout out this week. I don't know why it's not it's just miserable about that. News. Um, I just spent 72 $76 or something on fly by June. They make chili sauce that is absolutely delicious. I bought the little guys I've always believed the Triple Threat which is like three individual sets. It's all good. Fly byjng.com I blew through the small jars and just got the big boys. So I'm very excited for them to arrive. What's their name? This is my favorite part. One of them is literally called The Big Boy.

Rhian 44:52
Yes, go by.

Kelly 44:54
And the second one is called King john

Rhian 44:59
by Beijing is also not planned everybody. Not at all

Kelly 45:06
that just happened. But this is also why I love cleveo because it's the best platform to be using.

Unknown Speaker 45:12
Yeah, it's less, it's harder to see when you are going through all of your favorite ecommerce stores, but it's so funny. We, when my whenever somebody new starts, they're always amazed how many brands that they use every day that are cleveo customers. It's great.

Kelly 45:32
All right. Final question. Where can we find you on the internet?

Unknown Speaker 45:36
mostly on Twitter. At love Val Geisler on Twitter. That's the best place to find me, quite honestly.

Kelly 45:43
Perfect. Well, Val, thank you so much for joining us and talking about iOS and all the things that they're taking away. But none of it matters. So it's fine. That's the that's the important part. Nothing matters. Nothing matters. Nothing. Now everything's fine. You can nap I just keep on saying some really sad things over here.

Unknown Speaker 46:05
And we're gonna start breaking on to everybody hurts soon,

Kelly 46:08
and might happen. But before we get there, I should probably go ahead and do the outro. Okay. Oh, thank you so much for tuning in. And thanks again to our sponsors for supporting this episode. We have a YouTube channel visit it@youtube.com slash Commerce Tea. If you'd like our podcast, please leave us a review on Apple podcasts reviews make us really happy. You can subscribe to Commerce Tea on your favorite podcasting service. We post new episodes every Wednesday. So grab your mug and join us then we'll see you next week.

Rhian 46:37
clocked in it's a time clock for Shopify. With clocked in your team members can easily clock in and out of their shifts from anywhere. You can manage your team's hours as they work remotely with an intuitive interface that can be used from desktop, tablet or mobile. Check it out at clocked in.io or in the Shopify App Store.

Leave a comment

Please note, comments must be approved before they are published